Erick: All right. Hello, friends. My name is Erick Cloward, and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of stoicism and break them down to the most important points. I like to pull in ideas from different sources, different I philosophies, modern neuroscience, psychology, whatever I think will help you to become a better thinker, because I believe that if you can think better, you can live better.
In today's episode, we're going to be talking with, actually, I'll have you pronounce your name because I don't wanna mis mispronounce it.
Louisa: Louisa, Swaden
Erick: Okay. I wasn't sure if it was Swoden or, okay. Good. So.
Louisa: Thanks for asking.
Erick: Yeah, so Louisa Swaden, she's the author of a book that just recently came out called The Stoic Rider. So we're going to be talking about stoicism, about challenges, about obviously motorcycles, and see where this conversation takes us.
So welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break,
Louisa: Thank you very much for inviting me, Erick.
Erick: And um, so before we hop in, um, since you know yourself better than I know you, uh, go ahead and introduce yourself to my audience.
Louisa: Okay, well, I am Louisa Swaden and, um, I like to ride motorcycles. And, um, I, I very recently bought out a book, this is a culmination, really of a, of a, a few years of thinking about stoicism and motorcycling and, um, the realization that so many aspects of motorcycling, also relate to aspects of stoic thought. for example, uh, movement, um, and, um, discipline and focus. And that all occurred to me and I thought, well, I think, I think there's a book in this. I've recently bought that book out and, um, I'm hoping that it will, uh, encourage among other people to not necessarily take up motorcycling, but definitely take up stoicism.
Erick: Nice. Nice. Yeah, I kind of have given up motorcycling, so I did it. I got my license probably about 10 years ago, maybe a little bit longer than that, and rode for about two or three years. But I found that, um, bike was kind of intimidating. It was a little bit, I think it might've been a little bit too big for me, but, um, I have short legs.
I'm only about five seven, so, um. But I have a long torso and short legs, and so it always felt like it was just over encumbering for me. And, uh, I always just had that fear that one of those days I wasn't gonna be able to handle the bike and ended up putting on my leg or something like that. I did pop my wrist out of junk pretty badly at one point, so when I popped the clutch on it, and that was, that was uncomfortable.
Plus I decided that I'd rather ride on a bike that weighed a lot less than I did. So I ride my carbon fiber racing bike, and that's kind of my, my road bike, which, uh,
Louisa: Oh, well, I think a lot of the principles are the same. You know,
Erick: yeah.
Louisa: philosophy and movement I think go very well together. You, your, in the world, you're experiencing nature. Your, your, your focus is there, your control is there. So is not so different. You know, one has an engine, one doesn't, you know, one has your legs, but I think the principles that can easily be applied to cycling as well.
Anyway, so, so
Erick: Yeah, I think for me, probably one of the most interesting questions I had, and I think you might kind of relate to this, was that somebody asked me once why I loved going out and cycling and, you know, spending three or four hours in the hot sun, you know, pressing along and riding through the mountains and stuff like that.
And I thought about it for a minute and I said, you know, I kind of want to see where my edges are. I want to see where that limit is of, of, of where I can push myself. Um, when I wrestled in high school, is that same kind of thing. 'cause wrestling practice was just brutal. And oftentimes you would, you would come to a point where you thought, I can't do anymore.
And coach would, you know, okay, let's do this. And you're like, ah, I can't do this. And then you do it and you're like, oh, I did that. Okay. I thought my line was here. And it was really that much further down. And when I was reading the first chapters of your book, I think that that was, that was kind of a, a thing that came through for me anyway, was that whole idea of like, this is where I thought my limits were.
And when I got to that line, I found that, oh, I can, I can push this a little bit further. I can, I can definitely extend that out. And I think we're often surprised when we do that. And when we come to a point and, and we're looking over that where we thought our line was and it's like, oh, I still got more tank in the gas.
I can do this.
Louisa: Mm mm It's amazing actually. And I can speak from experience. I, um, had a long break. I, I passed my motorcycle test when I was around 23, um, about a week later I found out that I was expecting, so
Erick: Hmm.
Louisa: it. And then I did not ride again and for 24 years. You know, I didn't want to risk an unborn child, and it just, motorcycling wasn't really conducive to having a family life.
You know, you need, you need the car, you need the vehicle. Um, so, so motorcycling was kind of shelved. And then it got to the point, my point in in life when I wanted something more. I had this feeling in my stomach that I was meant to have some adventure of some sort. um, and so I actually planned to do, do three things. I took a sabbatical from work and I decided that one of those things would be to fly to Las Vegas, get on an Indian Scout, which is a thousand cc bike. Bear in mind that I hadn't actually ridden a bike for 24 years, and when I did pass my test, it was 125 ccs, but I didn't let that stop me. so I thought one of the things was to ride on that, go through Death Valley, go to Yosemite, to the West Coast Highway down from San Francisco, down to Hermosa Beach. that was first part of that adventure. Then I'd always wanted to see the Panama Canal. Um, I'd been involved in Maritime for quite some years, and it just amazed me that it, it is a, a wonder, uh, well, it's sort of considered one of the wonders of the world, and it's a fascinating subject, and it was just being widened at the time.
So I, I thought I can get there just in time to see one of the largest vessels go through. Um, and then I wanted to sail a bit. So I, I did a, a, a, a competent crew course and a day skipper course. And I decided that I would on a, a yacht and sail across the Atlantic and end up in New York, and then I decide what to do after that. Well, of all of those things, the motorcycling had the biggest impact on me, of, of everything. And that was just incredible because it was a real, it was quite scary. And, uh, I, I think I only managed it because the type of motorcycling it was was you are in a line basically. You, you're in a line, you follow the guide um, you don't have to think too much.
And there's, the roads are nice and wide in AmEricka. They're not like the little country lanes in the uk. And, um, I managed that. I managed that somehow and I made the best friends. Um, there's a real sense of comradery around motorcycling, I overcame my fears and I managed to get on the bike. It was, it was quite an adventure.
A few things happened on the way, get on the bike and then do the trip. And when, as soon as I got home, I thought, I wanna do that again. But it wasn't the same. So I got myself a bike, I got myself an Indian, it wasn't the same. I, I had, um, quite a lot of fear and, and I still say that I can be quite a fearful person. Uh, and I had to overcome that. And as you say it, it's a question of to your limit and then. a little bit further and then a little bit further each time. Um, so I can attest to that. it was, um, it was a particularly slow process. Um, at first I wouldn't go more than sort of 50 miles an hour, um, even on motorways. So it was quite extraordinary how much further I did manage to take that. Uh, and, and that's a lot of the thing I write about in the book. It's about how you can get to that point where you, exceed your own expectations. And, um, and, and I ended up, um, doing land speed records and land speed racing on, Bonneville salts and on sand. So, so there's a, a, you know, that's an example of, of how you can actually push yourself to, to go from going 50 miles an hour. To two, over 200 miles an hour. that was just patience and incremental changes, incremental pushing and, and the discipline that comes with not accepting fear as, as, as something that limits you or your own thoughts for that matter. Um, and there were some incredible moments in my journey where I had that I had to face my fear and I had to push myself past it. So, yeah. Yeah. I, you know, it obviously it was the same for you with, with cycling.
Erick: I can't even imagine doing 200 miles an hour up on a motorcycle. So, and like I said, I, you know, I rode motorcycle for a while and it was, I think it was a 1200 cc engine. It was pretty big. Um,
Louisa: big. Yeah.
Erick: yeah, it was a cruiser, but yeah. And that thing could pick up. Pick up and go super easy. So like, you know, doing 90 miles an hour on that wasn't, wasn't hard, you know, especially when you're that light.
But I can't even imagine doing 200 miles an hour. So when you're in that space, do you ever, I mean, I, for me, when I imagine being in a space like that where I'm moving that fast, I mean, do you ever worry about just, you know, all the little things that could go wrong on the road, you know, a rock stray rock, just having to be in the wrong place, or a bird flying along and, and smashing into the front of your, your motorcycle?
Louisa: No, no. there's a, the reason why not, I, um, and I talk about this in the book, under the chapter, where you look is where you go, right? So
Erick: hmm.
Louisa: um, this is, I dunno whether you, you're, you've taught, you're taught this on road cycling, but where you put your attention, that's where you go, right? So, so when you are, when you're riding a motorbike. And you are, you're sort of doing a figure of eight. The, the pace you don't look is down or you're going round a corner, you look at the vanishing point, right? Because if you look over the edge of a cliff, if you look towards the edge of the road, that's where you'll go. I figured it's the same with your thoughts. So if, if you start thinking of all the things that could go wrong and looking for those things, all of a sudden your attention is drawn away from the moment your attention's drawn away from, from success, if you like. And, all of a sudden your, your mind is picturing all of these, these scenarios and you're gonna start to feel stiffer and you are gonna start to, uh, slow down.
I think I tend to be quite careful with my thoughts, and be honest, when I'm riding the bike, I think. A lot of people will say this, it's a very calm experience.
Erick: Mm-hmm.
Louisa: you know, it's, um, think that there's a certain stillness in motion and, um, I know Bruce Lee talks about this. Another one of my heroes, Lee, talks about this, the stillness in motion is, is the, the absolute stillness. And I find that when you're going very fast particular, it's the stillest I've ever felt. It's, um, uh, it's, it's, it's a beautiful sense of presence. And all the chatter's gone, you know, your mind is, is, is just wholly there and it lasts for a split second, but an eternity at the same time. You know,
Erick: Yeah, no, I can relate to that. When I, when I got divorced in 2006, my, my zen time to deal with it was to go out riding and I was putting in, you know, 150, 200 miles a week on my bike. And
Louisa: Wow.
Erick: yeah, it was just, you know, I, I would ride into work two or three times a week and then take the long way home, you know, and do a 40, 50 mile ride all the way back home.
And it was just, you know, and it would take me about two to three hours, but it was, you know, and it was hard to explain. I'm like, it was very zen because basically when you're on the bike that you can only do one of two things. You can either focus on what, you know, everything that's going on around you, which you're outta nature and you see everything there.
Or you, you're kind of in your mind, but you don't have anything else, you know, and you're just constantly kinda moving back and forth between those things and. And I found, for me, that was just very calming and very relaxing. And it was just how I dealt with, you know, a lot of the stress and the sadness and the grief that was going on at that time.
It was just being out in nature and just, you know, getting in that flow. And one of my favorite things is when you're riding along and everything is just, everything is just right. Like for me it's when my legs are pumping, my breathing is just right. You know, I'm on a nice, a nice flat and you know, and the sun is shining, the weather's great and you know, and the smell of clovers coming over the road and it's just this amazing moment and everything is just in sync and you just, yeah.
And it's that perfect flow state. And I just, yeah. So I know.
Louisa: there.
Erick: Yeah. So I understand that feeling. So, but so with doing all of that, are you still racing now or is that something that you kind of did and then took a break from? Or is that something you're continually doing?
Louisa: no, I, I, I've took a break from it. I wouldn't rule it, rule it out in the future, but, um, in fact, I've, the book has taken up a lot more of my time and I took up another, a hobby as well, so I'm, I'm quite a. I think I put it down to I, from a very young age, I was very interested in the world and interesting in all the things that that one could be. And, um, I, I thought a very young age, I thought it's not enough time to do all the things that I would want to do. so I decided. Look, of, obviously I can't trust reincarnation, it's gonna happen. So I'm gonna have to try and fit more than one life lifetime into one life. And, and that, that sort of stuck with me.
So as soon as I got the opportunity, I, I, I took the sabbatical and then I took up the motorcycling, and then I thought of other things that I, I would like to experience. And one of them was, um, was actually power lifting. recently I've taken up power lifting. Well, in the last 18 months as a, and I wanted to feel like what it would feel like to be a competing athlete. So I took that up now I thought, what would it feel like to become an author? So I'm, I'm constantly reinventing myself for, for the love of life, really, for, for the love of experience. Um, because I, I just think it's just such a wonderful thing to be alive on the planet. And if you don't listen to your yourself limit, limit yourself, why not?
Why not at any age? Why not take up something new? Um. that thing that you always wanted to, why not? Don't let anyone tell you you can't. And there's another one of my one, one of my things, one of the reasons, reasons for living, is really to try and convince other people to not just shelve all of their ideas for their life. Because time is so precious and we don't know how long we've got, obviously we've all got to work, we've got to do these things. But there are things you can do, um, at weekends, for example. And the first land speed record that I got, I, I bought a bike off eBay blind. And um, 'cause I didn't really know what I was doing.
I got this opportunity to go to Bonneville, which, which, which will have happened just by chance, but through one conversation with a lady that I, I had when I was in Italy. And I got the chance to go to Bonneville, but I'd never ridden on a, on a sports bike. so I, I got some advice for some friends of mine and, um, they said, well, if you're gonna race on sa uh, salt, you need to race on sand because that's the next most of equivalent sort of, um, terrain. And, um, I thought, okay, well, well how do I do that? And I said, well, need to get yourself to this place called Pendine Beach in Wales. And, um, I thought, okay, great, I'll do that. So, so when's the next race meeting? Well, there's two a year and the next one's in. 10 days. So 10 days, I had to just quickly find a sports bike.
So I didn't, I just bought one for the same price as a mobile phone. um, I got myself a race license. I got myself a leathers, I got myself some, uh, boots all within 10 days. that's how I managed to get to INE Beach and do that, that run. And it was just, it was literally, you know, it was literally a week's preparation that I had so. It's, it doesn't mean you're, it doesn't have to be a grand gesture that you change your life, that you quit your job and go sailing around the world. You know, not everyone could do that or wants to do that, but if you've got a, a dream, don't put it off because I've seen too many people who have postponed what they wanted to do in their life and never got the chance to do it. So I'm, I'm hoping that this book will convince people that you really ought to consider life a ment Maori, as the stoics say. 'cause remember that it is limited and that isn't a morbid thing. That is remind you that. This, this is fleeting, this is, this is transient. Nothing lasts forever. Um, we don't, our health doesn't. So if you've got those things now you know, those experiences and it might just be, you know, your, your thing might just be that you want to go and volunteer for a charity. You know, matter. It doesn't matter the scale of it. I've chosen things that, um, you know, are quite sort of dare daring and, slightly, I, I think I've ch partly chosen them 'cause they are vehicles, if you like, for, for my message, which is you are never too old to take up something and you should seize the moment and follow that, that instinct that you've got in your stomach telling you the time. I always wanted to do this, and don't let anyone tell you you can't.
Erick: Yeah, no, definitely. I always talk about kind of the two sides to Memento Maori, which is that, you know, you will die. So do what's important. You will die. Nothing's important. You know, nothing so big that it, it, that it, it really truly matters because in a hundred years, who's gonna remember that thing you were worrying about on,
Louisa: worrying about
Erick: you know, last Tuesday?
Louisa: Tuesday.
Erick: nobody cares.
Louisa: exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Erick: But the, yeah, it's kind of a dichotomy of the momentum. Worry, for me anyway, that's kind of the way I see it, is that, you know, nothing matters, but everything matters.
Louisa: Yes. Yes. You know, and I, think it, you know, from a young age, I've always wondered what, what life was all about. What's the point of it? And came to conclusion, there is no point but to live. And, you know, we were, there's no point in trying to, to seek something outside of what you, what you have already here. What, what you seek is here and live.
Erick: Yeah, I think it was Alan Watts had a great speech on that, where he is just like, the secret to life is just to live. That's it. You know? You don't worry about being a good human being. If you are living, you are being a, a human being. There you go. And I was just like,
Louisa: your life's purpose.
Erick: exactly. And I,
Louisa: that one off.
Erick: yeah, and I, I appreciate it.
I always appreciate his kind of matter of factness about things like that, where it's just like we overthink things sometimes. Sometimes the simple answer is just, it is what it is. And, uh, yeah. But I think the stoics, that's, that's part of it. What drew me to stoicism was that there was so much of it that it just.
About not worrying about all the high fluent things, but much more about the practical in the now kind of things. And, you know, you know, virtue and, and you know that if you can live this way, then you will find happiness and stop. And it's just, it's boiling everything down to the fundamentals. And for me that, I think that was kind of the, the main draw from that was that, you know, it was, you know, I kind of joke around with people that it's kind of like a good religion, but without all the rules, you know, it's all the good principles and there's no dogma on top of it.
You don't have to believe in something that, that doesn't make sense. You take these principles and you prove them out and you find that they actually do work. So I guess, how did you find stoicism? What was it that drew you to it and what was it that introduced you to it?
Louisa: I from, I, I've always been interested in philosophy and, um, I think it's, it's to do with the, the fact that stoicism particular has reason, uh, uh, as its sort of core. It's a, it's a reasonable, it's reasonable philosophy. It makes sense, it makes perfect sense. It's logical, it just, the way of looking at the world, the, the, the lens that Stoicism provides just brings everything into clarity for me. obviously the, I'm, I'm very interested in all philosophies. I existentialism as well, but it's, they, they, they're very, very tangent and tangential. very much overlap and Buddhism and overlaps as well, and all of these things just. just made sense to me. It, it helped me through my life and like any human being, you know, I've had my, my share of ups and downs and the thing that really has helped is, is becoming aware of myself, my thoughts, Realizing what's in my control. And that's an awful lot. In fact, it's everything. You know, if, if people can be into concentration, concentration camps and, and overcome, if people can be to that point where they're in such dire states, but actually content because they control their reaction to their environment.
I mean, there's immense power in that isn't there? And I think you can overcome anything when you, when you apply that framework to your life, whatever is, is, is happening. There is a, a, certainly, I found a source of great comfort in, in rationalizing that you choose, you, you're choosing to have this reaction to what's happening Because of that, you can choose to have a different reaction. Obviously it's pretty hard sometimes our emotions are just like gorillas with wrenches, you know? And great, great if they're doing what they're told pretty drastic. If they're not, they, they, they're very powerful. And you know, that's, that's because we're human.
We were made to have these emotions. Emotions are our friends. Um, we've gotta understand what the reason is for these emotions before we act on them. you know, it's, it's, I've always found that. Uh, I can calm myself, my emotions if I, if I catch them quickly enough and I use the stoic framework and then I think, oh, hang on. what's that feeling? That's pretty bad feeling. Why am I having that? And I always pick back a layer of, or two or three or four. And then eventually you get to it and you say, well, was only my control. Does it matter what they think about me? No, not really. So everything's okay. Yeah, pretty much. Okay. So, so I guess, you know, it, it, it came from a love of reason and a love of inquiry and I, I find philosophers often have two or two other disciplines, two or three other disciplines, which they're very interested in following one psychology. I know that, that, that was also always an interest of mine as well, and evolutionary biology. it all came down to why do we do what we do? Why do we think what we do and is there a better way? And, and, and you know, that, that those, I think those three things, and I think psychology for me is how do you understand the tool that's measuring itself? So that's why I always thought, well. How do I know, how do I, how can I trust myself? Oh, why am I thinking that? And I'd, I'd look at it from, from behavioral perspective, but also a biological perspective. What is it in my, in my head? What are the particular structures in my head? why am I behaving like this? And I know I'll never have. I know, I know nothing. I know like stoics say, I know I know nothing. But it's, it's nice just to uncover a tiny little fraction of your world and understand it a little bit better, a little bit of pleasure out of that and, and if not the world, then yourself. So, yeah. it's, it gives me great pleasure, stoicism, the way it, it frames my existence on this planet and the way I can see things in a different way. and hopefully share that with other people as well.
Erick: No. Agreed. And for me it was, it's kind of the same thing of like, once I finally studied it, it was like, oh. This, this makes so much sense. And you know, it's like, like you were saying, psychology feels like it's kind of in the moment thing, but philosophy and especially stoicism and you know, like Socrates and stuff like that, it's more of the meta portion of that.
It's like you're able to step up above and look at not just, and this is what I'm thinking, but this is what I'm thinking and why am I thinking that? What was the root of that? And being able to dig down deeper into that. And while I think psychology is good for, you know, managing the day-to-day type of things, I find that philosophy I.
You know, I guess the, the best way to put it, you know, is kinda like psychology is like decorating the inside of your house. Philosophy is like moving the foundation around and setting the foundation the way that you want. It's, it's harder work, but it makes your house much better than just, you know, oh look, we put something pretty up.
We painted this really, these colors really nice. He, and it's like, but yeah, but if your foundation's weak, it doesn't really great matter how we, how good the walls are if it's, you know, tipping on the side. So,
Louisa: Yeah. Yeah, that's the good one. I thought about that. Yeah, I like that.
Erick: but, uh, yeah, and I found, for me, again, it was the rationality. It was when I, when I finally understood the dichotomy of control and had that light bulb moment of like, oh, wait a second. So I'm not just, emotions aren't just something that just happened, but there's always a, a root cause of that. And some of it's gonna be, uh.
A stimulus that happens, but a lot of it's going to be judgements that are both conscious and unconscious. And while I may not be able to control the unconscious ones, I can control the conscious ones and then go back and uncover some of those unconscious ones and see if I can change those over the long term and see if I can help to change some of those reactions.
And for me, that was the biggest thing because I felt like there were many times where I wasn't in control of my emotions, that, you know, I felt like, why are these things, you know, why do I feel this way? These things are happening to me, my emotions are happening to me and not they're happening from me.
And that was a very big, like aha moment for me. So is this something that, that you taught your kids, have you, have you turned them into mini stoics?
Louisa: Um, I would say that, um, my kids, I must have used metaphors all my life with them. Um, I, I think they're pretty grounded. think they see the world as it is. Um, but they're very different characters. I've got two daughters and they're very different characters. It's almost like you, you take on half of my brain and the other half of my brain, my, I go, a sort of a more emotional and a very rational one. And I kind of, it is split into two children, and they're both, they're both amazing kids, they're not, they think they're so interested in philosophy, but they do have a, a good appreciation and an understanding of the world and, and, uh, motivations of people. So yeah, we, we don't, we don't talk philosophy. but I try, but trying to get 'em to read my book.
Erick: Yeah, same with mine. My kids are the same way. I'm just like, have you read my book? Oh yeah, I guess I should order that. And I'm like,
Louisa: Yeah.
Erick: and now I got, I brought back some copies Yeah, well, I brought back some copies from Amsterdam.
Louisa: it.
Erick: Well, I was living in Amsterdam at the time when my publisher sent me the copies there.
So I was like, okay, but now that, now that I'm back here, I'll be like, here, read my book if you want. But yeah. Um, mine are kind of the same way. One who is definitely more emotion driven. Um, and the other one is very, is a natural stoic and just very like, rational, very thoughtful. Um, has a good understanding of, of when people are acting out a certain way rather than being reactive back.
It's always a, huh, I wonder why they're acting that way. I wonder what's going on in their head. And that's just the way that he naturally is.
Louisa: Yeah,
Erick: it's, it's it,
Louisa: lot of grief, doesn't it?
Erick: yeah.
Louisa: their behavior, you know, as something against you. I think that that's a, a fabulous thing if you to teach your kids to say you need just to, to question everything and not jump to that conclusion that somebody hasn't texted you back, or if, if someone feels off today that it's your fault. You know, we, we tend to internalize that and, and, and look for blame and, and then, you know, indignation or whatever because they didn't do something that we expected of them. Again, it's setting expectations is what, what somebody call it, premeditated resentment.
Erick: Yes.
Louisa: yeah.
Erick: I always say that.
Louisa: so,
Erick: Yeah. I mean, my saying is always, you know, failure is just simply missed expectations and who sets those expectations.
Louisa: yeah, exactly.
Erick: And so if you're mad at something because it failed, well, who was the one who set the expectations of what it should be? Whereas if you can look at something just for what it is and that you know that it's always just.
Your choice of whether or not to be disappointed, your choice of whether to, to have these expectations in the first place. Now, that doesn't mean you should lower your standards, 'cause standards and expect people confuse standards and expectations all the time. You know, they're like, well, I, I expect things to be like this.
And it's like, no, you have standards of how you, of what you will and won't accept, and which, you know, a standard is also a boundary, but your expectation should never be something that is out of your control. And, and that definitely includes other people.
Louisa: Oh my goodness. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And just to imagine that, the, there, there are a million reasons why somebody is acting the way they are, and they might not have anything to do with you. So
Erick: I.
Louisa: why waste your energy, um, on, on coming up with scenarios where it's all your fault, you know? But beings are, are the way we are because of evolution.
Right? It, it's, you always forgive, you always have to forgive yourself for, for perhaps acting rationally or emotionally because that's, that, that was a survival, that was a survival instinct, you know? um, we, we really, really wanted to be liked by people because to not be liked was to death, really. You know, if, if you, you know, you are in a hunter to gatherer situation and you're in a group, um, and all of a sudden they turn against you, where's your next meal coming from?
Erick: Yeah.
Louisa: so, you know, we, we have it hardwired into us that we, that we have to make friends and we have to be liked. So, you know, it's, it's one of those things that if you, if you. Your mind wants to jump to the conclusion so that it can fix that problem of not being liked. So why were they, why were they like that to me? What, what did I do? What did I do? Um, but I, the, the, the trouble is we've, we've not moved on very far, you know, since those days, right? And we still have, there's plenty, you know, certainly in our, some parts of the world, there's, there's plenty for everyone.
It's just unfortunate that not everybody gets the same shares of things. But in our part of the world, there's plenty. But we still have those, emotional reactions to, to, to loss, don't we? that's that strict, that stimulates the amygdala, and you get fearful and that that means isolation.
And isolation is just, that's the end of you. So. But I think in the modern times, we are now able to stop that, you know, and that's the mindfulness, um, of, of meditation or, or just mindfulness. It helps to break that cycle before it goes too, too far down. I read somewhere that, um, an emotion is just a load of chemicals and that burst a chemical only lasts a few seconds and it's only by us continuing to think of the problem that we continue that chemical release. So, so we might get a, a burst of fear and then we ruminate on that burst and then it, it just magnifies it and it keeps it going. But if we can, we can stop it and say, ah, I, I'm afraid because this, this, and this might happen. Now how realistic is that? Not realistic, a little bit realistic. How can I mitigate that?
Then you've, you, you've, stopped that spiral and you've stopped that, that chemical from being released and actually getting worse and worse and worse. So, yeah.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah. And that's even hard. Like I find that it's still challenging for me, even though I've been studying this stuff for, you know, nine years now. There's still times where I, I get stuck in kind of those, those spirals and it's like, oh, and then I look back on it later and it's like, well, why didn't I use the tools?
I have to be able to stop that and to do what I know and, and yeah. But it's one of those things where, again, you know, it's also that you need to forgive yourself because you know you're never gonna get it perfect and you're always gonna be continually working on that. I.
Louisa: no. And, and you know, it's, it's, it's good if you just catch yourself a, a few times because constantly, I think putting it into practice is so, so hard. I know the book's really been helpful to me because it's really, it's reminded me and it's been really quite therapeutic to me. And, um, I, I used to, I used, I had a joke at work once and I was working with some colleagues and I think, um, came out and there's quite a lot of philosophy in Spider-Man.
You know,
Erick: Mm-hmm.
Louisa: as I went with great power comes great responsibility and I mean, we had a particular challenge at work and I said. What would Spider-Man do? And now instead of saying that, I say, what would Marcus Aurelius do? So, so, um, yeah, it, it practices is, you know, it's gonna be a lifelong thing, but if it, it just helps your life occasionally, it's still gonna be better than nothing. Right?
Erick: Yeah. Yeah. And I think what was, what's so fascinating about, um, Meditations is when you think about it, it's not about his conquest. It's not about all the great things he did, it's him facing his demons. It's him berating himself forward, not living up to his expectations. It's him trying to figure out why he feels so weak in different scenarios. And like, this guy was the most powerful man in the world.
Louisa: yes.
Erick: So I, I found it interesting 'cause I had a podcast episode, uh, a couple of months ago where I talked about how I'd been struggling and, you know, that, um. I just had a couple of weekends, well, especially one weekend, where I just felt incredibly depressed.
Just, you know, no energy, no motivation, nothing. Like I could not get myself to get up and do anything. So I would just, you know, basically just sat around watching Netflix all weekend. And finally after two days, it kind of like, seemed to subside a little bit, and they're like, you know, you're weak. I'm unsubscribing because, you know, weak minds make bad decisions.
And I'm like, well, then you must hate Marcus Aurelius, because he had so many times where he's like, you know, why did you, why did you fail so badly? Why are you such a terrible person? You know? And it's like, and, but it wasn't him, you know, berating himself per se. It was him just trying to go, like, trying to get to the core of why he wasn't living up to his ideals.
And so I was just like, you know, and so I'm like, well, you know,
Louisa: Mm-hmm.
Erick: if you, if you don't like me just saying I had a depressed weekend, then he must really hate Marcus Aurelius because he struggled with depression his whole life. You know? That was just one of the things we get from that.
Louisa: yeah, yeah. No, I, well, he, you know, Marcus realized that that true strength in, in power was in, in your own mind. So he said, you have power of your mind, and if you can and harness that, then that is the true strength.
Erick: Yeah.
Louisa: obviously he just felt that he was a human being. Like you and I, you know, we, we, we do have bad days and we will always have bad days, it's, our, you know, challenge to, to try and not make them as bad as they could be, accept, you know, we are at the mercy of our biology.
And, you know, that weekend could have just been a, a change of diet or just, um, a, a change of, of body bio rhythm I think sometimes you just gotta give into that and just say, well, look, I'm not feeling great. I'm not gonna put too many demands on myself. I'm gonna sit down and I'll put a limit on it and the weekend, whatever, and then I will get up and do something.
Because I always find that doing something gets you outta the funk a bit. movement is, for me is, is, is. It certainly gets the body dynamic start to change and you, it gets you out of your own head, I think when you, your environment is changing around you, that's possibly why you am attracted to motorcycling so much because you, you are in the world, you're not in your head. And the experience of being in the world is, is, is so natural to us. You know, to experience the wind on your face and the sun on your face or the rain, to hear the birds, this is what's so different, you know, about go long distance on a motorbike, but put me in a car and 30 minutes down the road I'm thinking, oh, I just wanna be finished.
Where, when are we gonna be there?
Erick: Yeah.
Louisa: on a motorbike, you know, seven, eight hours and you arrive or and, and it's, it's because you've been out in the world and you've, you've, you've done your job of living, you've experienced being alive and, and that, I just don't get that from inside a glass box.
Erick: Yeah,
Louisa: get it in a motorbike.
Erick: no, I, I can totally, it's funny that you mentioned this because it reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine about two weeks ago. I went down to visit him in southern Oregon, and he was showing me around his town and stuff like that. And because I've been there a few times, but just, you know, for a weekend or two and.
And he was just point, and he, he said, it's interesting talking with you and pointing this, you know, pointing things out. It's like, because it's bringing more focus to it, I'm noticing things that I drive past every day, which I don't usually notice. And I said, yeah, I, I, I totally understand that. I said that's, that's the same way how it feels for me.
The difference between driving in the car and riding my bike somewhere. It's like, I can ride in the same neighborhood, same streets and everything, and on a bike it's a totally different experience, 100% different experience because I'm exposed to everything that's going on around me. There's not these barriers around.
And, and, and also because, you know, on a bike you can take all kinds of different paths and that you can't in a bike, in a car and other things like that as well. But yeah, being, you feel much more connected to everything around you than you are in a car. That's separation. It's pretty stark.
Louisa: Mm mm I think we, we do suffer quite a bit from being isolated from other people and, um, and the experience of living you know, you, you think about, especially as I, I worked in an office for, for most of my career, and it's, it's such an alien environment, isn't it? You know, to be in a box with the Hummer of machines and, and, and to sit at a table and to keep your head down and or to look in a screen, it, yeah, we're doing that for a third of our lives and that's just, it's not how we were built, was it, you know, it's, uh, we were built to, to, to be very tactile with our environment and we were built to to, to forage and have. Problems and solve problems out there in the world rather than on a piece of paper or on a screen. Um, so it's not surprising that we do struggle, uh, with, with feeling, with, with loneliness for a lot of us.
Erick: Yeah.
Louisa: It’s an epidemic. Um, it's because we've, we've, it's really unnatural, but we've normalized it in this century that we've normalized this way of being. that's why I'm trying to encourage people to, to, to sort of rebel a little bit from that. I, um, I, I believe that we we're often conned into working to sustain a lifestyle that other people tell us that we should have. and it, we We are often told that, and fear is used quite a lot to sell us a lifestyle.
You know, you, you are missing out on something. You, you know, you need to, to, to be seen as being a successful person. You need to drive this kind of car, wear these kind of clothes. get into this trap of making maybe good money, getting those things and then having to continue to work to sustain those things.
You are working for things, whereas the, the, the sad fact is the most precious thing is your time and you are trading that for this thing. You, you're trading that for this house with more rooms than you need and this car that's that, that you're then taking a mortgage out on. And I just think that's. So sad.
I think that's, uh, really, it really gets to me that people are trading their lives for material things instead of experiences, um, because they're not, they're not gonna be fulfilling. you know, and, and to focus on fear is a motivator for anything is, is to be very, out on so much, right? there's, there's two ways you can live your life.
One is, is through fearful actions and one is through love. immediately, you know, you know way what, what place you're acting from by your body. if you are acting from a place of fear, you'll, you'll feel this. I must, I should. All of these words will come in and you'll feel very tight and con constricted you.
If you're coming from a place of love, uh, it's much more expansive. You know, you, you, you feel a, a pulling something's pulling you towards something where it's fear is making you hide away or, or change your behavior for, from, from something. It's a much smaller, constricting emotion and unfortunately, which one sells the most, unfortunately, fear, you know, that's, that's what we, we are drawn towards again, because we're fear keeps us safe.
Well, it did, it used to keep us safe from harm. Um, but it's been kind of hijacked a bit and, and that's, that's a real shame. So I, I guess that I. When a very, I get into a conversation with people. I, I, and, and this is what this book is all about. It's about trying to, to realign people to, to see almost just to open a door wide and just say, look out there.
Look what, look what you're missing. Look what you could have. And I hope to explain that as much as I can through, through my actions and what I'm doing, that you don't need the big house. You don't need the big car. You know, you just, you just need the time back because it, it's very limited on this earth.
And at some point, any point it could be your last day. So, you know, it's, it's, um. You see, it brings it into sharp focus. I think, um, when you understand the difference between living a life that's fearful and living a life that's loving, I think, you know, you can see it on people's faces. You know, they, they look healthier. They look, you know, they, they're active, they're outside. They're doing what they love, and that is a good life. Yeah. As far as I'm concerned.
Erick: Yeah, I can definitely agree with that. So that's, so they've gotten back to Portland. That's one of the things I've tried to do is every day do some kind of activity, whether that's going to the gym or cycling and the, that's, those are pretty much my two things. And like, and uh, and yeah, it's, it's nice because one of the things I found at Amsterdam was that because I was using an e-bike there, I actually lost a lot of the muscle.
That I'd had from years of cycling. And so when I got back I found that, oh wow, this is a lot harder to ride. Like, you know, it's like, okay, even though my, you know, I've got a carbon fiber road bike, it's, it's, it was still just where I had been, you know, just a year and a half before that, you know, it was pretty dramatic.
And I'm like, and I thought about getting an e-bike when I got back here, you know, so I didn't have to get a car or something like that. And I'm like, no, I think I'm just gonna get a, I got, I bought a gravel bike, so that way, you know, I can put Penners on it and ride around and, and do all the things that I want to, um, as much as possible without having to use a car, without having to, you know, put under my own power because I find that I missed that
Louisa: Yeah.
Erick: Yeah.
Louisa: Well, the mind and the body are, you know, are connected, interconnected, you know, and it's, one is, is not at its best performance, the other one won't be either.
Erick: Yeah.
Louisa: it's, it's, um, I know they're so appreciated that, that, um, you, you know, you, you've gotta look after yourself and that's the discipline of it.
You have to, to make this, this body serve you for your life. Um, it, it's important to move, you know,
Erick: Yeah,
Louisa: to move in
Erick: absolutely. So, and you mentioned power lifting before. Is that something that you're actually competing in or is it just something that you've taken up as your, your current hobby?
Louisa: Well, I, I always have, unfortunately, have to have a goal. And, um, last January 24, I kind of, I, I came up with this idea that I wanted to compete in the British National Championships. And this is coming from someone who never. in power lifting before, I thought, no, this is something I really want to do. I think partly because setting that goal, I, I knew I'd
Erick: I.
Louisa: to, to a, a, a good regime. also, you know, the power lifting itself is very good for all sorts of other discipline. Discipline in your diet, nutrition, and focus on, on getting to the gym. Certain days of the week, I've been much, much better.
I've much, I've drunk, drunk much more water, and I started to really watch what I was putting inside the body so that all. Contributed to me actually getting fitter and fitter. And in fact, only three weeks ago I did compete in the British National Championships. Um, yeah. So I fulfilled that goal. I'm, I'm just, I'm still slightly on cloud nine.
I got there. 'cause it was, it was hard work
Erick: Oh, I'm sure.
Louisa: yeah, I'm, I'm not, I. I'm, I'm not, I wouldn't say that I am naturally good at, at sticking to things, and that's why I'm so proud of it, really because I, I got myself a coach and, and she kept me, she kept me on the line and I said, I chose my line. And I, I stuck with it and I'm so pleased with myself that I did that. Uh, yeah, it is just another thing that Stoicism has helped me with, the focus and paying attention. It, it's all just, it all just came together and, yeah, and, and I love it and I'm gonna continue doing it. The competing is, is really hard work though, so I might just end up just keeping fit rather than carrying on with that.
Erick: Um,
Louisa: I might find another project, but Yeah. No, but again,
Erick: one more thing to fill your time. Yeah.
Louisa: Yeah. and, and it's not that I, I'm like that I'm fanatical about keeping on finding
Erick: I.
Louisa: new. Do get, do this, do that, do this, which it might come across like I am, I, I know there'll be a time when just walking the dog will be enough. I get a great deal of pleasure from walking my dog anyway, and I kind of think that that time it may be only a couple of years away, three years away, when that's all I'll want to do. I'll just wanna walk out there, about life, um, maybe carry on with the writing. But all of these things that I've done, they're, they're, they're just, I, I've just felt a, a yearning to do those things.
To, to just, to, to see what's possible. If you just keep saying yes to life and, and by doing them, maybe encourage other people as well to take that attitude that, well, you know what, if she can do it, I can do it. Because I maintain my averageness to everyone. I am just other people, but I'm just chosen to keep saying yes and see where it goes. So,
Erick: Yeah. No, I, that's, I agree. I think consistency is probably one of the biggest, I think it's probably the most important trait in anything that you do. You know, it's, it's that ability to just put the work in day after day. And it's hard because we, we want that instant gratification. We want that, like, oh, I put in a big amount of effort here and I just want the reward and, and done.
But you know, like with all things, you know, it just consistently doing the thing is what's. What's gonna be a much higher predictor of actually accomplishing the thing. I mean, I,
Louisa: yeah,
Erick: mean, for me, like the podcast, you know, people are like, you know, how are you so successful with the podcast? How do you, how do you get a big audience?
How do you do all of these things? And it's like, I don't, I just do the thing and I keep doing the thing.
Louisa: yeah,
Erick: And that's more important that I do the thing and how I do the thing than the outcome of it. 'cause I can't control that. I can't control how many people listen to it. I can't control how many people like it.
I can't, I mean, I could do it perfectly and they could still hate it, you know, which is kind of the whole point of stoicism is that you can't control your reputation because you can do everything perfectly and people will still may still hate you because they just.
Louisa: yeah.
Erick: whatever reason, they disagree with you, and so they're gonna hate you.
Louisa: Yeah.
Erick: so with this, it's that same thing. It's like, I, I don't worry about how many people are listening. I worry about how good am I doing my podcast? Am I doing things that I am that I like? Are they doing things that I wanna learn? Am I putting ideas out there in a way that helped me to grow as a person?
Because I think if they're gonna help me to grow and I can express them in a way that helps other people, it's that same thing that, that I'll find my people because it'll resonate with them, you know?
Louisa: Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I completely see what you mean. You've just gotta do, you haven't, you just keep showing up and, and that's what happened to me in the gym. Then I must have hit a, a wall probably a year ago
Erick: Mm-hmm.
Louisa: and I, I kept saying, oh, I don't think I can keep doing this. I don't think I can do that. This isn't for me. And then I just say, well, just one more, just one more. Just
Erick: Yeah.
Louisa: Just, just, just do this one week. And then if you really wanna quit at the end of the week, you quit just one more week. And then all of a sudden the weeks just fell away. and then the rewards were there, you know, I felt better.
Um, I, I, I just felt better in my whole body, my more energy. I eating so much better. Um. It. And then all of a sudden you think, actually it was all worth it and I don't wanna stop now, but yeah, that, that showing up regardless of really what the outcome was. That's, that's great. Yeah. That's great advice.
Erick: Yeah. And yeah, and then obviously she was like, I noticed when he first came on the screen, I noticed the muscle tone like right here. And I was like, oh, I guess she goes to the gym. Then you mentioned power lifting. I'm like, nailed it.
Louisa: There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Erick: So even under, even under your sweater, I can you, uh, you're showing up. Well,
Louisa: it, it, it's, it's really important, I think, to keep your strength, especially as you're getting older. Um, ladies, we, we lose our estrogen and that's, that's responsible for bone density and muscles. So if you can replace that by going to the gym, you know, it's, it's a really, it's really great to go into your sixties and seventies and eighties with. Still strength. You know,
Erick: yeah.
Louisa: um, and power lifting does actually attract quite a lot of, of ladies post 60 70 because it's, it's, it's, it's, it's structured so that it's age and weight. So this is why anyone can just. Start powerlifting, you get the master's categories sort of over 49 to 59, 59 to 69 6, 9 79, and you get people just starting the, uh, powerlifting in their sixties and seventies and, um, and why not, you know, and competing.
So, you know, I, I only started 18 months ago and I've, I've got a, a Welsh record in deadlift and I've got a silver medal at the British National Championships, and that's, that's just months of work. So, you know, if I can do it, anyone can do it, and any age too. And it's, it's so good for you, you know, it to stop your muscles atrophying. It's just, it's great. So I do intend to keep weight lifting until, well, the year dot really, I just think it's, it's an important thing to keep doing.
Erick: Yeah,
Louisa: Hmm.
Erick: I feel very much the same way and I, for me, it's just taken a few years of. Slowly rebuilding because I've had so many, like, just old injuries. So I ruined my elbows from rock climbing when I was in college. And it's just taken, you know, it's taken probably about two and a half years of just active effort of first just working with resistance bands and like rebuilding the whole foundation to now where I can go to the gym and, and do curls without my elbows going, what are you doing?
And uh, and there was a point, I remember years ago, there was a point where I would go to the gym and I had to be very careful of that because if I, if I strained them too much, I'd be out for three weeks. It would just, it was, it was that tenuous of a thing. And now it's really nice because over the last two years of really working on that and just building that foundation and, and I was going, you know, weekly, you know, several times a week when I was in Amsterdam.
And then when I'm back here, same thing. And now I can go to the gym, you know, do two. You know, two different, uh, exercises with curls and not even have to worry about it. And it's, it's such a nice feeling. And I love, and I love feeling the strength. And, you know, when you, when you like, you know, reach across and touch your, you know, scratch your arm, you're like, wow, I like how it feels like, yay.
Louisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's good. Yeah. The other benefit to that, um, is, is the, the people that you meet and, uh, especially the, the strength gym that I go to, but you, you, there's a, it's a great connection between the people as well. They we're all there. We all sort of understand what we're doing. We're all encouraging each other. it, it is a very good way of connecting. And there's that, that sort of stoic principle where, you know, we are all connected, we're all leaves of the same tree. And I think we, we feel that when we are pursuing the same sorts of hobbies, and we certainly feel it in motorcycling a, a very strong bond between motorcyclists, a common bond.
You know, I'm, you're never alone. You know, you, you, if you break down the side of the road, you, you know, you won't be there for very long before someone. come along either in a car 'cause they've got a motorcycle at home or riding a motorcycle and they'll stop and help. there, there's, there's a, there's all that, the goodness that comes from it.
And I think that's probably why, I took to it more than the sailing. Um, sailing's fun. But when you're out there on the boat, you know, you just, you've got your crew and yourself, me. But with motorcycling, you, you are part of one massive family.
Erick: Mm-hmm.
Louisa: one of which is, um, actually I'm part of this, I was part of this relay in 2019 called the Women Riders World Relay. And um, that's just starting up again this year, but. That got thousands of women all over the world together, United we, we set about passing a bat on all the way around the world from woman to woman. Um, and I got involved in that at short notice. This is period of my life when I was trying to do as much as I could for other people. And I rang them up, I said, I know you've got the relay organized, but if you need any help. And um, they said, well, you know, our Italian ambassador has just, has just gotten sick, so we need an Italian BA ambassador, short notice. So the ambassadors are the ones that kind of get the girls together. They organized the route.
And I had like three weeks to go and I said, well, why not? 'cause it was my, I was getting used to saying yes. So I said, well, I'll handle that for you. And, um, anyway, through all of that, I got to meet some wonderful women There's a, there's a family out there of thousands of women who will, uh, moments notice if you, if you rock up on their door, they'll, they'll invite you in and they'll make sure you're okay. that is, that's a very stoic thing. You know, that that feeling that we're all connected, that there is, we are human beings and, and we're all sharing a, an existence on this planet that is very keenly felt in both power lifting and in, in motorcycling in particular.
I think that, again, that combats that isolation that we're talking about earlier, that combats that. That feeling that, you know, you're not, you are not part of anything and that fear, but something, especially with movement, I found with other people, I think it just gets, it, it gets this feeling of, of camaraderie really sparked and that understanding that, oh, you are human too. You have fears too.
Um, I was a motorcycle tour guide for a while and. Why I love motorcycling. I think what I love most connecting with people on a, on a deeper level. 'cause once you, you get on a bike and you people sometimes return to motorcycling and they, they book the tours and they are quite nervous perhaps when they start.
And they, if they're not nervous about the bike, they're perhaps nervous about these people that they're gonna spend the next two or three weeks with. And, and you see them change over that period. You see the, the humanity come out. oh, you are nervous. I'm nervous too. Are you? Yeah, I'm nervous. Oh, okay. know, and all of a sudden the, the barriers start to drop and, and we see each other, you know, we see each other on the road and we help each other.
And that's missing, you know, uh, it's, it's brought into sharp focus when you see it again, when you see it happening around you. I have made the best friends in, in shortest amount of time. You can work with someone for years and not know them, but you go on three week tour to Morocco and you, you share your, your worries and your concerns.
And you go a little bit deeper and you share your vulnerability and all of a sudden, you know, you are this, this, this place, you're catapulted into deep and abiding friendship. Um, and, you know, everyone, pretty much everyone I've met and I've been on tour with, has gone through a profound understanding of an appreciation for, for each other and humanity. that for me was, it's just wonderful to see that happen, pretty much every time that happened.
Erick: Nice. Yeah. Kinda sounds like burning man. I'm just kidding.
Louisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. you find that on, on road cycling? Is there a, a camaraderie?
Erick: Oh, absolutely. Um, when I. When I'm out riding along and, you know, another cyclist is, is riding and, you know, we're all kitted out. They're just like, it's like, yep. You know, I've had times where, you know, I've gotten a flat or something like that, you know, somebody pops up and, you know, rolls up like, Hey, you need help with that?
And usually I'm set, but, you know, it's been really nice. Um, and I've even had people who weren't who, like, there was one time I was way out there and I'd forgotten my pump. And so I was like, Ugh. And I, I don't know if I didn't have my phone on or if, you know, I think I was still married at the time and so I wasn't able to get ahold of my wife.
And so I was just like walking along and I was like, gonna go to a gas station or something. And so these guys in their truck just pulled up and they're like, you need help? And I'm like, well, yeah. And they're like, well, where are you going? I'm like, oh, I need to get back to Hillsboro. And they're like, well throw it in the back.
Really? Yeah. We'll, we'll take you. You know, and I was just like, okay. Just so, but I, I think that's, that's kind of a Portland thing as well, but it's just, but definitely among cyclists. Yeah. I mean, it's like you're riding along in every, you know, immediately single each other out and wave. And, uh, there are different clubs that ride around here and, you know, you get to be really good friends with people with that.
But yeah, I think because I, I got into it because I was actually training for triathlons and, um. Uh, so I'd seen the, the Kona Triathlon in 2003 and I was way outta shape and I was just like, I gotta get back into shape. And that inspired me 'cause these people were so hardcore and I was just like, this is gonna be amazing.
And so I tried that and I found that cycling was the thing that I liked most out of the three. And you know, I'm just, I'm not a great runner. My body just does not like running. It just always feels awkward. It just, I never, I never, I think there's been a very few times where I've hit that flow state when running, whereas when I'm out riding, it's just like almost every time just
Louisa: yeah.
Erick: hit that and then it's then getting in with a, you know, cycling club.
And it was just like, okay, this is just, you know, I stripped off the other two and then just did cycling and done a few centuries and, which is probably one of the hardest things I've ever done.
Louisa: Wow.
Erick: So basically like six hours of riding. In, you know, in very hot weather, you know, over all sorts of terrains. Yeah, it's wild.
Louisa: rewarding though. You know.
Erick: It is, and it's, I remember when I got done, I was just like, I've never felt so... like my body, the endorphins and everything, but I so exhausted. Like I could just go lay down next to that tree and fall asleep. But I also feel pretty incredible at the same time, you know? And then obviously slept well that night, so.
Louisa: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think anything physical that we share with other people, I think it tends to strip away that veneer, of them and us. I think that it, that, that separation, 'cause we do, because we all, we all do struggle, but we tend to hide that, you know, it is a sign of weakness, but when, when you see it. It automatically. there, there's an empathy that comes through, and then I think you realize that, hey, you're just like me. You know? and I, and I get it. And I get it. And then I, I believe innately that, that we're all pretty much in the goodness of people. I think there's, there's
Erick: Yeah.
Louisa: more goodness than perhaps you're led to believe. Um, people will help each other. And I think you, you know, that's, that's something that unfortunately, the fear factor and the media and, uh, you know, and, and the way that, that it's hijacked a bit. and, and social media's hijacked in some quarters. Um, it, it, it does kind of. Encourage that separateness, you know, but I, you know, I'm not, I'm not sort of, I wouldn't say that social media is all bad.
It, it is just the use that it's put to, you know, that's, as with anything, nothing is, is good or bad until one thinks it's so as Shakespeare said.
Erick: Mm-hmm.
Louisa: Um, and it's the, it is the use of the thought that, that, that, that colors it. Yeah.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah, that's very, very true. Alright, well I think we're coming up on time here. Um, before we go, is there anything, last words you want to say and also let my podcast listeners know where they can find more about you?
Louisa: Sure, Well, I guess, um, the most important thing to me is, is the appreciation of time. As we mentioned before, time is, is precious. It's limited. And, know, if you, if you just have something in your heart that you want to do, don't put it off. This is what I would say. Do the thing. and you won't regret it. Okay. you know, you, my book talks about this a lot. um, they're called the Stoic Rider Philosophy of Motion. And if you wanna follow my exploits, um, you can find me on Facebook as the existential biker,
Erick: all right.
Louisa: It came to me in a dream. Um, but it, it's all about the fact that, you know, existentialism is about choice and agency, and you do have a choice and you can change things and it's up to you.
So. Um, please ride safe, be safe, and live well.
Erick: All right. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being on my podcast. Um, to my podcast listeners, thanks for joining us for this conversation. Um, and we'll see you next time. And as always, be kind to yourself, be kind to others, and thanks for listening.
All righty.
Louisa: Thanks Erick.